Jun 28, 2024
35 min
Episode 80

TOP CMO: Peter Mullen, Interactions - 'AI-Powered Customer Magic'

Peter Mullen - Interactions  00:00

Attendant to the whole concept of wow my business can be better with AI is the tremendous fear of what if I move in the wrong direction, all of that means that we have a great opportunity to seize the moment of emphasizing humanity.

Ben Kaplan  00:13

This is the podcast where we go around the globe to interview marketing leaders from the world's biggest brands, fastest growing companies and most disruptive startups.

Ben Kaplan  00:28

This is TOP CMO with me, Ben Kaplan.

Ben Kaplan  00:33

Today I'm speaking with Peter Mullen, CMO at Interactions, a company that builds virtual assistant applications for customer care through natural language. Peter is a metrics driven leader was experienced in FinTech, CX SAS, ad tech entertainment. He previously served in senior marketing positions at companies like Comcast and pay active, he's also held marketing roles at Netflix, and worked as a journalist for The Associated Press and National Register. At Interactions, Peter has become an AI expert. So what strategies should marketers use to stand out in an AI driven and rapidly changing market? And how can you balance AI driven efficiency? With authentic human connection? Let's find out with Peter Mullen.

Ben Kaplan  01:17

Peter, maybe to start off with, you sit in an interesting place, because obviously you're a CMO, you're a marketer. But specifically, you're dealing with the topic of improved and heightened customer experience and customer interaction, which is going over is having a complete sea change right now, because of the rise of generative AI. So first of all, with more people talking about generative ai, ai and chat GPT, how has that just changed the type of marketing that you do the type of education that you need to do with this being the sort of hot buzzworthy topic? Hey,

Peter Mullen - Interactions  01:51

it's great to be here. And let me frame this by saying what Interactions does so we're the digital front door of your customer experience, we deliver white glove experiences when you call into your favorite brands. And we start our conversations by saying how may I help you, we've been doing it for about two decades. And that means that we were at the forefront of artificial intelligence AI, when it started. And what's unique about us and where we're going with this is that from the beginning, our company has had a human in the loop components. So years ago, you can imagine AI being in its infancy. And when it would run into a stumbling block, a human would nudge the conversation for that human would not be part of the whole conversation, but we'd kind of drop in, move the conversation forward. And if you're the clot, that customer just trying to change your hotel reservation, trying to shift your plane schedule, you wouldn't know any of this had happened so seamlessly. So that's why we are in this world of customer experience, slash customer support one of the largest categories in all of business, it's keeping the customer happy, which is marketers is what we all care about as part of our business. So here's been the ecosystem that has happened today. Fourth quarter, everyone's world changed. That's when open AI launched and generative AI became one of the most exciting and one of the most disruptive things any of us will ever see. As a marketer working in the customer experience space. This has been an insane, remarkable, exciting, dynamic, frustrating change that has happened in a matter of literally days. What it means for not just me, but for the 1000s of companies that work for the hundreds of millions of people who have customer support needs every day is the following. We have an exogenous change in how to think about the marketplace, it promises, efficiency, fluidity and a better customer experience, which is what we all care about at the end of the day. It also offers and promises insane cost reductions and efficiencies inside all of the enterprises. So as a marketer, it is an incredible moment in time to look at everything we have been doing and saying what works, right? And what's going to continue to work in the next five years, versus what do we have to change and shift as we move forward?

Ben Kaplan  04:03

How has it just been on basic things like when people are coming to Interactions, and they're inquiring about the product, or, you know, I don't know, feedback, your sales team gets on a sales call, or just this notion of what people's expectations are hasn't shifted the ways that you have to message what you do, either to differentiate what you do from this just, you know, general but hot topic, or to piggyback on the hot topic just to let people know that you've been doing this longer than other folks. And and that just because it's sexy now, doesn't mean that you weren't doing it long before that

Peter Mullen - Interactions  04:40

what the promises is automation. What automation does is then free up dollars in an enterprise or free up human capital to work on things that are more important. It's a really great value proposition, AI generative AI overall, and for my company, then no, it's like ours. We have to think about We now get the buyer to understand what his opportunity is, but also understand what the pitfalls are so attended and attached to the whole concept of wow, my business can be better with AI is the tremendous fear of what if I move in the wrong direction? What if I move too soon? How do I figure out what is the right first or second step. And this is massive Ben Gartner came out just this week in my category, and indicated that there was a 20% drop, more or less of spending decisions inside the overall category of conversational AI. And that had nothing to do with the economy. Rather, it had to do with people putting a pause on major massive product projects, to reassess their own roadmaps of what they are going to do going forward. Gartner than on the back end, is predicting a surge, like a 33% surge above all time highs about a year and a half from now. Because people will have made their decisions and have started taking action. So I start talking to prospects above the funnel. And this is in the brand stage of things, and starting to have not one too many conversations. But one too few conversations about where our value props were our special a call it secret sauce is as a company that provides white glove service, our approach is that we can offer a better solution than the tools that are out there today, we combined human and AI together, that's always been the message. And what that means when we talk to these folks is believe it or not emphasizing the human side of things stronger than ever. That is a massive change from what I was doing just six or nine months ago. I that's how I start the conversation. Number one, we are the company that you can trust. We are the company that you can have confidence in. And I've softened to some of the let's call it sales messaging. And I've heightened some of the trust messaging. And what that looks like from a practical standpoint, across campaigns, which might be emails might be events, I might be even social media is I'm spending probably an extra 25% of my time, having our thought leaders, give communications or SMEs or sneeze, give communications about how our product can add value instead of trying to just state what the value is subtle but important difference. It's interesting

Ben Kaplan  07:23

that the rise of generative AI and the potential for maybe in the future, you don't even know if you're talking to you, as we've discussed before, as if you're talking to a real person or you're not, you can't really tell the difference. Do you think brands companies will start to having to be like really celebrate the fact if you're talking to a human, or that someone's a human that that becomes like front and center like the human side of this, if everything of every conversation you have, you know, could just be automation? And you're not sure? Is that something that, you know, in the next three to five years as marketers in every space, we're going to be talking about telling the human story, what's the human role in this brand? If you know if we're a great customer service company, there's humans here. Is that going to become the counterbalance to this? Do you think that we're all going to be, you know, emphasizing the human connection to this, because in some ways, you know, automation will have just brought down the cost and accessibility of just dialogue. It's not dialogue anymore. It's, it's actually a human being there. Absolutely.

Peter Mullen - Interactions  08:26

So I have a strong opinion on this. So in my category, when I walk through events, today conferences, the number one word spoken is AI, by far, but the number two word spoken is human. And what we are seeing is that this element of human or humanity, or storytelling, or connection, or empathy, put all these words into the bucket. It all means that people are very scared by how fast AI is moving, and it's moving very slow right now, just imagine where we will be in 510 years at the rapid rate of acceleration and adoption that's going to go on against that we have got to emphasize the human side of things. So that's what I see. That's what I hear as I'm walking through these conferences, when I'm having hundreds of conversations with different prospects to just try to understand how they're all thinking about it. Now, if you think about it from a marketing perspective, I believe that the traditional BDR SDR flow fundamentally changed about a decade ago but most businesses don't realize this. I do not believe that there is strong functionality anymore. Unfortunately, inside a lot of one to many outreaches and trying to, in the sense spray and pray and I am not I don't mean to say anything negative about this, these type of efforts. It takes so much work. These are where heroes are developed every single day in these categories. But but but we as recipients as prospects have been conditioned to wake up in the morning and delete all of our spam we are conditioned to put our phones on silent mode if it's an unknown phone number that you additional mechanisms are no longer working now, now that we got generative AI coming in, and if you look at what's happening day to day, right now in our world of marketing, we're getting all these pitches on how we can now automate our emails, we can automate our phone calls, and the person receiving it won't even know how long second, the last another three months, another six months, it's going to implode on itself. And this thing that you just talked about this human storytelling and connection is absolutely is going to be what saves us. Multiple studies show that telling a story is 20 times more likely to have retention to the person who heard it, then giving out facts, if we start with something like that. And if we layer on top of it, this concept of humanity and humanizing the overall experience. And then we layer on top of that this fact that there's never been a better time to be a thought leader inside a company, talking about what you do in an authentic way. All of that means that we have a great opportunity to see a call it seize the moment of emphasizing humanity,

Ben Kaplan  11:00

interesting to think about just a very practical level for anyone who's ever played around with like chat GPT or something like that. Certainly, it's getting better over time, there's certain things that a chat GPT can write really well, or converse about really well, that's structured a certain way. And there's certain things that it won't do so well. And so it's interesting to think about as, rather, if you're a marketer, and writing is a skill you have, and then you know, people are worried like, am I going to be replaced by AI? Or if you're a business and you're creating marketing, maybe what are this the type of writing or the type of content that can't easily be generated by, you know, an AI based system, maybe that's the kind of thing that's going to be valued, and that you should double down on. And of course, that's a moving line, because it probably gets better over time. But to your point, things like stories, or experiences that maybe aren't structured in a way of, hey, here are the 10 reasons that you should do something bullet one, bullet two, bullet three, and of course, AI will get more sophisticated in that. But that's kind of the state of the art now that it's going to be able to answer anything in a very structured way. Maybe some of these connections and synergies and stories and other things that don't resemble that normal patterns much suddenly will have higher value.

Peter Mullen - Interactions  12:12

The answer is yes, let's take a metaphor, if you and I are driving through San Francisco, or London or Santa Cruz, wherever, and we come across a beautiful commercial building. And it's beautiful, because the wall has street art graffiti against it. 10 feet, 20 feet tall, some one of these pieces of art that surprises us, you stop at a red light, you see that an otherwise nondescript building has something special and unique, it has flair attached to it, we stop, we look at it, we comment on it, because it's different. And it does not have to be beautiful. In fact, when it's done by a local artist, we actually as just humans tend to appreciate it more. Now metaphors aside, I use that just as a simple example of how something that is unique, and has flair is what is going to stand out. You and I and everyone else in the marketing world to some extent, we try to game the system every day by building great blog content that we then run through an SEO machine and we then post at the right period of time. And then we check what the results are we gated or ungated we have all of these programs and these rules that we think are moving our business forward. But at the same time, what AI is doing is commoditizing all of that experience. So you're not going to be able to tell one versus the other. i Today I've taken my blogs and I have run them through various machines and come up with better blocks haven't published some yet. But I'm certainly thinking about how it will do that. And I know many people are starting from zero and they're already doing that. That guy's is just going to commoditize on itself into a pancake have nothing maybe faster than we all expect. So this element of being unique and of having the flair of perhaps doing odd casts of doing videos of getting out in a one to few experience where you're authentic, is where the future is going to be for all the efforts that we have. If you enjoy this show you'll love TOP CEO TOP CEO

Ben Kaplan  14:15

is a business school case study telling the story behind the story and what you can learn from it from those who have faced the fire and come out the other side. That was the challenge the team was faced 25% of it was gone. I found myself $280,000 in debt How would you navigate through these trials and transform them into opportunities for growth and success? How do you build back up the business and get out of debt and get anything in nobody can come to work right in any of our factory in any of the factories This is TOP CEO available wherever you get your podcasts Peter well an interesting to talk about how we might Think about different media and different multimedia. And will there be an emphasis on you mentioned Hey, we're doing a podcast now. I'm not as easy maybe AI will get there and they can do this podcast will be aI Ben and AI Peter and they'll just have a conversation and we won't need to do it anymore Peter, but besides that or or video we can we can see the person we can tell that Peters passionate about this because we can see the expression on his face. And, you know, as getting better at that too. But for now, that's distinctive. Do you think marketing channels that lend themselves to sort of human Authenticity will be heightened and more valued and those that are just like written words on a page, because that's like, the first thing that AI is really good at is just generating written words, that's going to be devalued, unless it's special. And unique to your point, if it's special and unique, it's always value. But if it's average, or like, you know, your A B plus B plus bought out, you know, the typical B plus blog, then is that going to be devalued? And we're going to be needing to do in podcasts and videos to separate ourselves out and show the human element.

Peter Mullen - Interactions  16:03

You know, I think the simple answer to what you just said is yes, we're going to have to stand out in new ways. You used a really important word where you use word devalue. And I think the better way to reframe that is that everything that we're doing has an opportunity right now to be revalued. And it should be revalued for right now, today, ie 2023 2024. But we should also have the courage and the creativity to revalue it in 2627 28. Because this is going to happen at a faster speed, we need to have the flexibility that we don't know exactly where all the changes are going to go. But we are all smart enough. And we have enough directional visibility to know overall what where the market is moving and how as marketers, we want to get the level of impact that we've had. And that we are going to have in the future, I think that there is going to be we'll continue to have personalization and customization in marketing, we're going to continue to zero in on the one to few rather than one to many, I think that there are going to be opportunities for incredible brand, awareness campaigns brand growth, and you can drive a message at the macro macro level, but it's not going to be as easy for everyone to do it, it's going to stand out where we are going to use another metaphor, we're going to go from having 200 rock stars in the world to having just two or three or four. And those are gonna be the brand messages that will break through. That's it's a wonderful time to think about what we do with our plans and look at every single one and say is this plan going to continue working if the direction of where the market is going and marketing strategies are going continues? Do you

Ben Kaplan  17:52

think this notion of somewhat popular if you if you kind of follow generative AI on like Instagram or social media, the discussion will be like, Oh, hey, the marketing skill of the future is going to be cat GPT prompt writing, meaning it's not it's not the blog post anymore, it's being good at writing the prompt that generates the blog post, that's going to be a skill. And in some ways, if you want to be top marketer in five years, you know, you don't have to be quite as good a writer anymore, you have to be a good prompt writer. And that's kind of in vogue right now to improve your prompt writing skills. Did you buy that? Or no? Is that being a marketing skill of the future?

Peter Mullen - Interactions  18:32

I think it's a marketing skill of right now. And I think you're spot on. I have a daughter, who is in college. And she came home a couple months ago and said, Hey, I'm going to become I'm going to major in prompt engineering. I'm like, Wait, what are you talking about? This Yeah, but it probably will in some respects. But you know what, the different tools out there are already giving us the tutorial tools on how to improve it. This is another thing that is going to evolve and iterate so quickly that it's going to go from something amazing to something that everybody kind of forgets about. It'll be a prompt engineering is absolutely essential. But it's just going to become not another one of our tools, I can absolutely see a full time employee on my team having a title of prompt engineer, no doubt. But I'm also seeing that that skill is going to have to constantly be updated. Because unlike all the skills that you that we've all accumulated over time, up until now, this one is going to get easier at a faster rate because the machine itself is going to make it easier and easier. Over time. Let's just use this open AI, there it is. Let's just chat UBT as an example, overtime that's going to quickly understand what it is that I like what my tone of voice is, I'm not going to have to put that in as a prompt. Each time I'm asking for something. I'm already creating my categories. If you picture the dashboard of where you play with this or engage with it. You already have your menu list of how your building out all of these different prompts, they're only going to get smarter and smarter. So it's so the net summary of this is that it prompt engineering absolutely crucial for marketers to have right now it is informing the human element of things over time, it's gonna get more and more intuitive and smarter with what we want to do, and it's gonna become part of our toolset. Well, it's

Ben Kaplan  20:19

interesting actually, to think about because, you know, there's a, an old adage that says that, and I've actually, you know, maybe said this before the rise of generative AI, that the adage would be this more important than having the right answers is asking the right questions, meaning, you can get to the answers eventually. But it's actually the questions that become important. And some of like, the Great thinking that each of us do, or great thoughts in history, right, historic levels of thinking, sometimes it's about asking the right question that led people down a path that led to really leaps of knowledge and understanding. And it's interesting to think about that in the context of prompt engineering, because as soon as what the prompt is, is just asking a complete question, right? giving instructions, giving context, giving an example being really, really good at asking a question. And then in some ways, it's just interesting to think about, does this generative AI make the answer a commodity? The answer is easy. If you can do a really, really good and precise question. And that's actually kind of hard to do. It takes a lot of skill and knowledge and information, you can ask an average question, easy. Great question. To your point earlier, unique and special, you're spot

Peter Mullen - Interactions  21:30

on. And you said, what happened? Essentially, what happens when the answer is easy? And now let's layer that into business outcomes. Because every enterprise and small business and medium sized business is trying to figure out what to do over the next coming years with the whole AI opportunity? If the answer is easy, and the answer starts to commoditize, itself, just in terms of speed of adoption, and the ability to shift and adjust that becomes part of a commoditization process. So then you and me, as business leaders, we're thinking to ourselves, okay, well, how do we continually refine that. So as the flattening experience is happening, at a rate we're absolutely not accustomed to, we have to continue to add in the things that make us special. So I use the word flare earlier, so that maybe there even becomes a flare opportunity for marketers of the future, where we're taking all these tools and the speed at which they are evolving. And we have someone who's coming in with the human in the loop concept. And his or her role is to make sure that everything coming out remains unique, stays account, state stays true to the Northstar of your brand, which is absolutely essential in what we are doing. And with the answer is easy concept. Hey, does AI make the answer easy? Will on a surface? Yes. But it's a great opportunity for the best brands to now differentiate their sell themselves inside that context. If everything is easy, how do I stand out how to become a world's top five brands in the category that I'm pursuing? That becomes a really neat construct for marketing, to dive into, and to kind of take a lead on

Ben Kaplan  23:09

and also interesting to think about from the perspective of when you know, from a branding perspective, when you know the foundation of your brand, then often the next step is like what is that brand's voice? Right? How does that translate into actual, you know, how it lives in the real world. And having that being really, really solid, being really kind of distinct and unique and a differentiator? Maybe so much so that, hey, automated AI based tools can help replicate our unique voice, but then there's elements that are just so special and so unique, that it takes the human touch to do it. Maybe, you know, that will have an effect of having a rise of that as well meaning if just general communication, if answers are commoditized, then having really well branded with a strong brand voice answers might have greater value as well, especially to the top brands in the world

Peter Mullen - Interactions  24:07

completely agree. And then we start talking about well, why does that make a difference? It makes a difference because of trust, because of trust, trust, trust, trust. And in the journey that you just took us on the foundation for success becomes trust, leading to confidence leading to engagement becomes a bit of a virtuous circle. None of that is new. But it's the opportunity. In a world of cancer funny, in a world of just a lot of confusion, a lot of things hitting us were in a very real way the buyer may not recognize what is real and what is automated. If we bring in that whole concept of trust, then that becomes part of our North Star for how we build out the brand message like you just gave. As you were talking I can picture out already today. Man these tools are giving us some nominal data on how to build a right group of ICPs ideal customer profiles. We can build that in seconds instead of weeks, we could then take those ICPs and convert them one level deeper into the funnel into personas, we can build out, let's say my business, I have about 12 personas, but about three really matter. However, in a hybrid remote work in a b2b environment, post COVID, I now have all kinds of new stakeholders coming out of the woodwork. And it's really fun to figure out. And what I mean by that is that in a remote world, there might be someone who shows up for a Zoom meeting that otherwise would never have come into my ecosystem. And I'm still trying to figure out what is that secondary or tertiary persona? Against that, if I've now had a tool that has built my ideal customer profile built, the personas built how to respond to those personas, I've reduced a ton of the guesswork. And now the last part of that, you know, maybe the great moment for all of us is to build out the tools that then helped me personalize the response to that individual. So now I'm on a one to one basis right away with somebody I didn't even know existed with. And the tools have helped me do that. And now we layer in everything that you just said, that leads itself to building trust, I have the time I have the expertise and the intentionality to build the trust in relationship with a whole different group of people. Because the tools, let me get into that position.

Ben Kaplan  26:18

Well, and interesting to think about, even if its basic state now like a chat GPT, which is in this chat format. If you had built out these personas, and if the software understood that, could you then go through the exercise of let's you know, let's go to each person, and let's have a conversation with it. And let's see what the response is. And let's see, what other case studies do we need? What other examples? What questions is this persona gonna have? How can we train our sales teams to be better at this, right? Usually have thought about it from the other other direction, which is like, Okay, we're gonna have communication that's gonna send out and then we'll see how it does in the marketplace. But what if we actually bring that in, and now we have, we actually have the interaction to use your company's name back and forth in this controlled environment that helps us get better and more precise with our messaging. Because now we can almost model what that conversation will be ahead of time and get better at answering questions or communicating value. And

Peter Mullen - Interactions  27:15

it comes back to what does the customer want. And so the you know, to tie that back to Interactions, we have large language models LLM we use natural language processing, that enables you to call your favorite brand. And because we are so precise with what we do, our models tend to have better more positive results than a traditional automated system by magnitudes of order. And that's what the customer wants, the customer wants, the efficiency. And once in the case of customer support, typically a resolution that is solved without any friction points, they leave the experience happier and better. And when we just when we think about these basic needs of what we have to satisfy the customer with whether the customer is an enterprise SVP who is making a $5 million budget decision on whether to work with an agency or you know, your company's SAS solution, or the customer is someone just trying to get back from Hawaii, and their flight got canceled. We talked about trust, we talked about confidence, but we got to be where they are living more than ever, in this age of disruption and change. And there are some pretty standard themes to be over indexing on right now. Remove friction, make it easy, make the brand get aligned, to some extent with what the values are of the person who is receiving the brand benefits. All of those start to come together in ways we've all been talking about for years. But with everything we're talking about right now, with AI, it's just moving much faster, and we gotta all compress how we think about it, and make sure that we're auditing and editing the process and we're iterating on the process. But just keeping these I don't wanna call them moral or philosophical underpinnings, but these foundational tenets in front of us from the marketing perspective is probably going to be more important than it ever has been before.

Tom Cain  29:18

Okay, so here's what I'm thinking. It's a Western with a sci fi twist. But there's also a film noir plot running in the background. And dinosaurs because why not right. Take the dinosaurs down a little bit. Okay, no dinosaurs. But a little bit of romance is always welcome.

Tom Cain  29:54

And zombies Yeah, we have to throw some zombies in there. Your vision, our craft, topthoughtleader.com. Listen to the first draft again, back to the show.

Ben Kaplan  30:11

Peter, what do you think for the typical CMO? who's listening to the podcast? What is your advice on how much time they should be spending, thinking about these kind of forward looking things? Right? There's a lot of disruption. There's a lot of change. It's how do we fit into this, but it doesn't necessarily resolve in dollars and cents immediately for us, or that, you know, on our next quarterly report or annual report that we can see the impact versus how much of that Sihamoni in Europe should be like, let's stay trading true that technology will work itself out. We don't have to be the first movers. We don't have to do that. Now. How much should be forward looking? And how much should be focused on the now for the typical CMO? Do you think

Peter Mullen - Interactions  30:51

it's so I think that we can all pat each other on the back and say, Hey, we're forward leaning. We're thinking about this all the time. But I also think most of us are working at 100% of capacity, I think most of our teams are working at 100% loss capacity. That's just the world that we all live in right now. And so how do you take all of this opportunity, but then turn it into something that's functional, tactical and usable? Here's how I'm doing it. So we have a couple of slogans. Inside my department, one of the slogans is zero to one, it's so hard to move from nothing to something. So instead of trying to solve all things at once, let's only go from zero to one. So in our case workshops, around small things related to how AI can improve and optimize the department, I want to make sure everyone in my department, and that I work with in the various agencies is thinking about how the tool is going to make them more efficient and more optimized to be successful, it's gonna give them the room to breathe. Okay, that's the whole Zero to One strategy. And it looks like, you know, workshops, it looks like conversations where we actually close laptops, except for resumes. We don't type we talk creatively about what we're hearing and seen in the marketplace. Simple example. How do I take, in this case of Microsoft PowerPoint, use AI? To make it better? How do I align different boxes, so I've just stripped 10 minutes to 45 minutes out of my designers day, because now everything is automatically aligned correctly, you know, that's zero to one. And then we can grow on top of that other element than the other slogan is crawl, walk, run, you know, it parallels the zero to one, let's figure out guys, what we want to do that small doable adds five to 10% efficiency to our lives, that's crawl. And then we're gonna move into walk, let's create a bucket of walk activities. How do we think about potentially running an email campaign or having a sequence of blogs that are written by AI, and then rewritten by a human in order to make give that human element that we spent so much time talking about? Those are a couple of the different strategies of how I look at what we're doing practically? Finally,

Ben Kaplan  32:58

where do you think we're going to be in three to five years in marketing? What are some things in three to five years that you think will blow us away? Or will surprise us or maybe won't blow us away? We won't be as far as we think, where will we be three to five years from now? As marketers? Yeah,

Peter Mullen - Interactions  33:14

I think there's, I think we are at a crossroads right now with everything we're talking about. And there are going to be companies and teams and individuals who are going to take one road. And that's going to be the one that's going to be leaning forward invoking all of these different solutions, there's going to be a ton of companies, good companies that are going to make the decision to slow walk and not be moving as far along. I think, in the macro that everything disruptive is going to be coming faster, bigger, as far as you probably pick that up by now. I think that as marketers, we are going to be focusing much, much less on one to many marketing, and much more on one to few marketing. I think authenticity as a theme for every business is going to be one of the top one or two buzzwords that they trust will be competing with authenticity. And I think the strategies, so we're going to use are going to remain significantly evolving. And I think a lot of the traditional ways marketing has been working over the past several decades, particularly with outreach to one to many is going to have to shift itself brand and messaging and the integrity of that is going to remain and have a great opportunity if you do it right. But then one level below that. We're going to have to repeat, just evolve it. That's one way of how I'm thinking about how we're we need to narrow down our audience to dive into a much more closer relationship with the people that are going to buy the products. Well,

Ben Kaplan  34:40

there you go. You heard it here first, is it the rise of one to few? The the emphasis of one to many, we'll see. Certainly it's an exciting time. And thank you for sharing your unique perspective. And it's kind of fun to think about all the ways that things are changing and all the opportunities that exist. So thank you so much. watermelon CMO Interactions. Thanks for joining us on TOP CMOs figured out this amazing episode was brought to you by TOP Thought Leader don't forget to rate review and subscribe

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