Jun 19, 2024
37 min
Episode 78

TOP CMO: Jenny Wall, VideoAmp - 'From Podcasts to Platforms'

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  00:00

We know people are willing to watch advertising and they actually do so as long as the advertising is good, then the advertising will be hopefully engaging to you. 

Ben Kaplan  00:23

This is the podcast where we go around the globe to interview marketing leaders from the world's biggest brands, fastest growing companies and most disruptive startups. This is TOP CMO.

Jackson Carpenter  00:28

Today I'm speaking with Jenny Wall CMO of VideoAmp, a technology company specializing in software and data solutions for advertisers. Jenny has more than 30 years of experience in the marketing, media and streaming industries. She most recently served as cmo and Nickelodeon for three years. She founded her own marketing agency in 2002. And this helped marketing leadership roles at Spotify, Hulu, Netflix and HBO, a true expert in media distribution. So how can marketers navigate the tension between brand and performance marketing? What do marketers need to understand about advertising on streaming services? And how can marketers be a force for social change? Let's find out with Jenny Wall. Jenny Wall, thank you so much for joining us on TOP CMO. Thank you so much, Jackson, for having me. Now, for those who aren't familiar give us the elevator pitch for VideoAmp video

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  01:21

amp is a measurement and currency and outcome tech company that was started about 10 years ago. And it helps advertisers both from a platform on the buy side perspective as well as sell side, maximize their advertising, and also help with cross channel measurement. So we can be much more efficient in your marketing, and actually deploy those dollars in the right places that can go for advanced audiences that can go for addressability. And so we are a competitor challenger in the business. And we're very excited to help. What I think is the new advertising revolution is finally to have some competition out there and to look at it in a much more digital and data driven

Jackson Carpenter  02:07

format. So it sounds like you're a CMO marketing to CMOs I

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  02:12

am. And I think when I took this job, they said do you have b2b experience. And I said I don't think this is b2b. I think it's b2c. It literally I've been a CMO, my you know, for the latter part of my career, but I've been in marketing. And, Mike, one of my goals here is to help marketers look like revenue generators and not cost centers. So when I talk to the salespeople here, I often say to them, you're not selling a product, you're really selling a solution for somebody One either to keep their job to actually be able to show that the money that they spent actually resulted in outcomes. And I think that's just been a lot has been lost for the last 50 years. I mean, I think the John Wanamaker quote that said 50%, of advertising is wasted, I just don't know what 50% I think, sadly, it's only 40% is now wasted. And so we've got a lot of work to do in regards to helping marketers do their job, be best friends with the CFO and keep their jobs.

Jackson Carpenter  03:10

That's a huge issue, obviously, for the CMOs in our audience, figuring out how to properly attribute the work they're doing, and make the case that they are a revenue center. So what advice do you have for CMOs to better make the case for the value of their work? Well, one, I

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  03:28

think they need to completely understand the funnel, I find some advertisers still are split between performance and brand. And when I see a company that separates those Eve, I usually tell them, that's not a great idea. And then, because really, you need to create that demand to collect that demand. And then you need to find the right partners. Of course, we think video app was an incredible partner, but be able to cross channel attribute the value and reach the audience and know you're reaching the audience that you attempted to reach. And so the best thing you can do is, you know, figure out what your let's say blended CAC is, or customer acquisition cost, how does that tie to an LTV and be able to prove with data to your CFO, the best that you can? So I think the short answer would be trusted, trusted data. But you need it from trusted partners. I think there's a lot of people out there trying to take credit for some parts of the funnel, when actually, you know, like, let's just say that a search, you know, that's last click attribution, but somebody had to learn about you. Think about you search for you. So there was more money spent up the funnel to get somebody down the funnel. And so I think merging that and then understanding how you play with money up and down. And then I had the other thing I think people forget a lot of times is that it costs money for retention. And it's a lot easier to keep somebody than it is to go reacquire them or acquire them. So you do need to put a little money into understanding that there's the top of that Another bottom of the funnel. And then there's also customer keeper KPI, also that you need to sort of continue to send them love notes and let them know how much you love them and build that trust with them. Because loyalty is is really big when everything is so fragmented these days,

Jackson Carpenter  05:16

when it comes to retention, how do you think about the balance of accountability between marketing and product? I mean, obviously, as a marketer, you're getting folks in the door. And then they're having an experience with the product itself. And how do you think about the relationship between between product and marketing roles for attention, it

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  05:33

has to be intertwined. And so you know, it used to be very siloed. I loved it at Hulu, you know, we all had a voice and what the product, what the product priorities were, for example, if we were going to shove another ad in a pod, I had a voice to say, that is not a good customer experience, because I am the voice of the customer in the room. Or I could say, you know, why are we asking for their credit card here in the funnel? Because they're going to drop off? So or what, how many promos? Are we showing for our original programming, like having a voice and trying to help engage, because we do know that engagement still is probably the best barometer of somebody that is likely to turn, obviously, the less engagement, more likely to turn the more engagement, more likely to stay.

Jackson Carpenter  06:21

Tell us a bit about your approach to growing VideoAmp. And in particular, I'm curious, what channels you've emphasized what's worked really well. And then maybe anything you expected to work that really hasn't, is there anything that surprised you,

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  06:36

you know, we're a really small lean team and a lean group with Lean money. And when I joined VideoAmp, we were a little bit of a different company. And we are now more focused on the measurement and currency space. And we were seen as a young company. So I think so sort of making sure people understood that, that we're serious tech company that's been around 10 years, we're a serious contender. But it's too complicated. That's the main issue. It's a very complicated product. And so one of the first things I did was I even told my team told our team that, you know, we're going to be the TLDR of ad tech, we're going to be the Dave Grohl of ad tech, we need to actually have some personality. And that's why I also say you're not selling a product, you're selling some, you know, a gut feeling about your brand, it really goes back to brand. So you know, very small team, like I said, but I have a very strong person running brand and very creative. So a lot of where we've decided to focus again are you know, one thing I learned at Netflix is no distractions, focus, focus focus, when especially when you have limited resources. And our focus is on LinkedIn. We did look at trying to go on the other social platforms, but our audience, marketers, advertisers, brands, ad sales is all living on LinkedIn that really is the new social platform for professional. So if you look at our LinkedIn account, I encourage everyone to follow it, we tried to have a little fun with little fun with with ad tech. We just had a Yahoo deal release yesterday. And we had a little fun take on that in the Google in the Yahoo search bar. And we are going to can next week, and you know, we've got video village there, that's what it's really it's like a vapor wave theme. And it doesn't look like any other ad tech company. So I would say those are where our focus is right now is building that brand. And then the other piece is the product marketing. So making sure that our salespeople and anyone in the market has a like a five page deck, not a 50 page deck or not even a deck just go in, figure out what the need is of that customer. And what how you're going to give them that's going to solve their problem. That's simple. It's not a you know, Chinese men are a menu I should say of, of everything to pick it so you're solving a problem for them. Some things that haven't worked as well, for us really is some sponsorships. I feel a little bit like you know, we're in a day where, you know, people are asking for 25 grand to put your logo on something and trying to see the ROI of being on a step and repeat and there's no disrespect here. I've done plenty of this. And I've gotten incredible opportunities by sponsoring things, to give keynotes and to be on panels, but I'm disappointed in the amount of them and then the kind of not necessarily understanding the ROI. You've touched

Jackson Carpenter  09:37

a bit on this. And I'm curious how you think about it. A conversation that we frequently have on the show is kind of around this tension between performance and brand. Another way of putting it is you know, you have these very right brained and very left brained people in marketing frequently who are advocating very strongly for things that can easily be counted and things that can't easily be counted. I'm Ted. And I'm curious how you think about the relationship between those activities and how you think that they really belong together and synthesis?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  10:09

Well, I mean, I think it's we're looking at brand is now also digital. So I mean, you're looking at CTV, you know, you can take linear Yes, and we can still measure with a car data and marry that with data down the funnel. But I think the I mean, brand to me is not as much solely the other side of the brain and performance, it's becoming more melded together, I would think, and I think a good marketer needs to understand both, because they're going to just fight for money. And it's actually you need to be able to look at again, I divided in demand creation demand collection, I'd rather say that you have to create the demand to collect it. And there are ways to measure the upper part of the funnel. And it depends on what you call the upper part of the funnel. But you'll start to see the demand when you create it. So there is some things that you can triangulate to to see how that brand is working at the top.

Jackson Carpenter  10:59

What are your favorite metrics for top of funnel measurement

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  11:03

I used to make? I'll say it's a mix of them. Because what I used to do is I made a I made a brand love index, when I was at Hulu. And what we did is we took our like our envy I don't think one brand one thing I'll tell you so I think some from customer research have you put, you know, NPs together with awareness, aided aware unaided awareness and move that put that together with attribution and put like, put, like put about six or seven things together, and then see if you can get what ones move that brand metric up. So I think top of the funnel, I think outcomes tied to the top of the funnel is probably the best way to say that. And that's not the answer I think you were looking for. But if I can say that, we ran these ads here, and then we ran them on CTV and then we ran them in social and we can work with Sargon or something to say, did that drive a store visit? You can tie that, that chain together. So I think outcomes probably in the end, even though that sounds like a performance is a KPI that I like to look for there. But I do think you know, I do think unaided awareness. I think search is a good way to see what your demand is.

Ben Kaplan  12:10

If you enjoy this show, you'll love TOP CEO. TOP CEO is a business school case study telling the story behind the story and what you can learn from it from those who have faced the fire and come out the other side.

Anne-Marie  12:27

That was the challenge the team was faced 25% of it was gone. I found myself $280,000 in debt, how

Tom Cain  12:33

do you navigate through these trials and transform them into opportunities for growth and success? How do you build back up the business and get out of debt and

Anne-Marie  12:41

get anything in? Nobody can come to work right in any of our factory in any of the factories.


This is TOP CEO available wherever you get your podcasts.

Jackson Carpenter  12:58

Now you've touched on this a bit and we'll we'll dive more into it. But you came to video and follow the great career growing brands like Hulu, Netflix, HBO gimlet, Nickelodeon, really fantastic, iconic brands. And now you've shifted into a, you know, tech role selling to marketers, and I'm curious, broadly how those experiences have shaped your approach as a marketer today?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  13:27

The easiest answer is frustration, has landed me here. I think one of the most frustrating jobs of a CMO is not being able to attribute where your dollars are going, not understanding, you know, taking your first party data and understanding actually, are you finding those people, we find that sometimes as soon as you take your first party data, and it goes out into the world through a bunch of different, you know, like a library or something, it breaks, it's a copy of a copy of a copy, and then you end up with 14% Match rates, and then you have to go back and try to find those people again. So I think the technology like we're working on that we have a video app that can have 70% Higher match rates. It's really just about reaching the people that you want to reach. And so I would say that I would spend 30 years in, and I love television. And I truly, truly believe that advertising advertising will save television. And if I can just dig into that just a second is, you know, I was part of the problem, right? I was at HBO no ads, it's not TV, it's HBO in the 90s. And then I went to Netflix in 2012. Again, no ads subscription, went to Hulu. We had ads, then we'd added a ad free tier. And you know, again, the models at Spotify, etc. And then going back to a more linear and streaming kind of bundle for Nickelodeon. And what happened is everybody chased Netflix down this sort of rabbit hole, thinking that the subscriber revenue was going to actually make up for the cable Cable and linear dying are dwindling. And unfortunately, the gap is too big. And so I think what's going to happen is, you know, we're all trying to figure out how we're going to continue to make great content, because that's why I love television. And I love movies, is advertising, if we get it right, just like the 50. Since, you know, back in the day, when you saw the Flintstones smokin lucky strikes, you know, advertising helped to build that content, and it's going to be the same here. So I think what's going to happen is we're going to be able to better value the ad units, because you're reaching the people that you know, you want to reach, and you're seeing outcomes, and you're spending less money, because you're reaching them faster. And then you're learning, I think, for the platforms, you know, they're going to be able to help brands sell more, so they'll hopefully get more of that business. And then I think we'll, the consumer will have a better experience, because we won't, you know, try to do reach and frequency, and over inundate people with 50 of the same ads in a pod. And if we get the experience, right, and we get sort of the AVOD and the fast channels, right. And we also help brands and platforms make money. I think it's a win win situation.

Jackson Carpenter  16:17

Well, this is a great segue into something I wanted to ask you about. So on a recent episode, we discussed with a guest how there is a real difference between advertising on television and advertising on streaming services. As a marketer, they're not one to one equivalents. And I'm curious, based on your experience, what you think marketers misunderstand about marketing or advertising on on streaming services, I'm

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  16:45

gonna say the obvious that we have infinite pods. So we're used to, you know, we're used to having one pod, and we have one ad that we can show them, we can show 1000 ads, to 1000 different people. So you can serve an ad to somebody that wants to buy a car, or that wants to buy insurance. So I think that's the biggest piece is like, it's not even a one to one apples, you can get way more targeted. So advanced audiences, I think is is the is the biggest piece.

Jackson Carpenter  17:14

Do you think that there's a difference in audience appetite for ads on streaming services? So if you're watching cable, you expect to be sort of interrupted with an ad block? Is there a difference in audience appetite on a streaming service and their feelings towards the advertisers who are interrupting their content?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  17:38

I think it comes down to what the ad is. So I think people are well, we know people are willing to watch advertising. And they actually do even like when I worked at gimlet, you could skip that 15% forward and 90% people didn't do it. So as long as the advertising is good, and I think that's another thing is we can hopefully help better advertising targeted to the right people of something that you actually want to buy, then the advertising will be hopefully engaging to you gimlet

Jackson Carpenter  18:07

for those who aren't familiar powerhouse in the podcasting space, major podcasting studio, right.

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  18:15

And we sold to Spotify in 2019.

Jackson Carpenter  18:17

This is an area where I've heard a lot of enthusiasm from marketing leaders around advertising on on podcasts. And I'm curious, similar to advertising on streaming services. What is it that you think marketers need to learn about podcast advertising?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  18:34

Well, one, I mean, it's a very intimate experience. And I think that's, that's that is you have somebody captive, and you also have them captive in other places, not in front of a screen. I used to talk to a lot of my friends in the business to say, why do you why do you leave people? When they get up from their couch? Like, why don't you follow them into their car? Like, if you have a show on Hulu? Why don't you do a company and podcast that actually tells a different storyline that you can take him into the car? Take them in a line with you. So I think that's one thing is I would think about it as another touch point that actually ties into other touch points that you have. I also think the the branded podcast is a really incredible way to go because it shows value. But it also tells incredible stories. It's a beautiful way to tell the story. With ancestry.com we did a podcast about an insane asylum, where were they found somebody famous as I want to say Plath's brain. It was fascinating and it was very subtly you know, ancestry.com But it was it was a great story. So I think thinking of ways other than just like in the pod, but I also do think that host read still does work better than a real ad because you're also with the host and it's on it doesn't change into like a really like frenetic something and you trust that host, because you spend a lot of time with him or her are they? And that's

Jackson Carpenter  20:06

actually an interesting point. Because I know that for some marketers, and maybe even non marketing stakeholders more so than the marketers themselves, there's a leap of faith happening when you say, I'm going to allow the host to read the script, and we don't get to do you know, 50 different takes and we don't get to heavily heavily produce it. What what words of advice would you have for folks who might be reticent to hand over the spot to be host right, as opposed to placing an ad? I

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  20:43

mean, I would say trust the host. He knows he she they know their audience much better than you do. And trust, trust trust. Right on what's your favorite podcast? I do listen to the daily every day, I do listen to Jim strangles the CMO podcast. But I say my favorite podcast that's outside of sort of what I work in what's not really is called acquired, which is one of my favorite. They're like three hour episodes, and they tell the origin story of brands. So like awesome ones, the Porsche one is great. Costco one is great. NFL is great. I highly recommend acquired. And

Jackson Carpenter  21:17

that's one that has has kind of taken off recently, I think I saw that mentioned in The Wall Street Journal. Not too long ago, it seems like they've they've had a an interesting rise to prominence. I think they've been around for a long time that have gained a lot of audience very recently, but

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  21:35

I definitely got it recommended by a friend. So I think there was a lot of word of mouth going around. And I've also recommended it to a lot of people.

Tom Cain  21:44

Okay, so here's what I'm thinking. It's a Western with a sci fi twist. But there's also a film noir plot running in the background. And dinosaurs because why not right? Take the dinosaurs down a little bit. Okay, no dinosaurs. But a little bit of romance is always welcome.

Tom Cain  22:19

And zombies, yeah, we have to throw some zombies in there. Your vision, our craft, topthoughtleader.com. Listen to the first draft again, back to the show.

Jackson Carpenter  22:36

Now you have the opportunity to launch The Handmaid's Tale, which was a huge event in culture and a huge event. As as like a piece of content, he told us a little bit about that launch.

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  22:48

Yeah, I mean, I love Margaret Atwood, I read that book in high school, and was extremely excited that we were gonna have Lizzie moss playing that title character. And when we started to figure out the strategy of that it was before the election, and it felt a little bit as if it was was still kind of far away of a reality. And I think the hardest thing with that was that once the election happened, and there was just concern, I will say for, you know, a good portion of the country, that women's rights could be taken away. You know, and we have seen that happen, unfortunately. And so it was sort of changed the strategy a little bit. But we also knew that we're, we were, you know, a mass audience. We're not a political audience. So what we did is we use moments like South by Southwest where we had women dress, in the robes, and that a bonnet and their person walk in twos and not say anything, and show sort of, again, what it would be like for women that have no rights, they can't speak, they can't talk to you. And it was really powerful. So working on that was a really important moment for me. Because it was how do you balance something that is a potential reality to a lot of people in this country, but also not over, centralize it or get into the political waters we did specifically did not have these women walk around at the Women's March. So it was it was a powerful movie, and also just incredible working with Margaret Atwood with Lizzie moss like it was just so well done. And it was also terrifying to work on. And I'm also the LGBTQ community. And it wasn't just women's rights, you know, in the show, they hung gay and lesbian as well. And so it reminded me of, you know, just human rights. And so it was able for us to talk about, you know, I think at the times the gay men in Chechnya were being killed and it just allowed us to talk a little bit about you know, open conversation about the reality of this but also celebrating the incredible show that that It was in the important importance of it at that time.

Jackson Carpenter  25:03

I'm curious how, as a marketer, occasionally, were thrust into the opportunity to communicate and tell stories that have the opportunity to have social impacted and change. At the same time, and you touched on this, there are sort of financial realities and, and brand risk realities. And I'm curious if we could put a little bit of a finer point on on how you balance, you know, the desire to share a message that's important to be shared at a particular moment, with an awareness that you sort of don't want to alienate audiences or potential customers? Yeah,

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  25:42

I mean, I think if you just you have to start with the story and start with why did you make that story? And then I think you'll find your answer is that as long as you stick to the story, then you will be okay. Because you're not making a judgment. So I worked on Angels in America, I've worked in Laramie Project about Matthew Shepard's death. And it's respecting what the story is without trying to make a an opinion. And so I think it's I think it's as simple as Why did you do it? And what do you want people to take from this other than just entertainment, and then you'll find your marketing strategy.

Jackson Carpenter  26:19

There's a word that I think is is kind of overused to the point where it's, it's sort of easy in marketing for a word like this to lose meaning but I think you're you're really touching on the idea of authenticity, being authentic to your audience of being authentic to the product, and, and sort of having a reason, a product lead reason to communicate everything you're communicating. And then when you happen to have a product with an important message, you kind of get to do both things. Yeah, no, I

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  26:46

think it's an incredible point very well.

Jackson Carpenter  26:48

You also had the opportunity to launch House of Cards, which is an incredible opportunity. Tell us a little bit about

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  26:54

that. I think the most incredible part about working at Netflix, is I went there before original programming, and I was head of creative and so I was lucky enough to sit with David Fincher. And I remember he was weird, we should come up with a new word. The biggest biggest opportunity with the creative that we had was that we were creating new behaviors. So we were dropping episodes all at once. So I remember he was in a room with me saying we should create a new word like upstream and just like throw we're just throwing out words and I just was like, what if we just erased everything and just said all episodes February 3, or whatever date it was and that's kind of stuck and it was the simplicity of it and then like working on Arrested Development and oranges the new black and also just behaviors in you know, we had a where you actually watch ahead on your your partner or your friend you when you say you're going to want to show together but because it's all there, so are the behaviors. There was people calling in sick so they could watch so it was lenient all those in with the rest of development, we did the same thing. I think George Michaels poster we did was you can watch me on May 12, or whenever you want. So it was sort of like taking each of their characters so that was probably the most fun launching those was defining new behaviors and then leaning into them and a lot of our creative for Netflix was around that was around the behaviors about like watching ahead and we had one and it was like cheating on your partner which it was called Netflix adultery back then. And we actually did a poll that Brian Williams read on the news seriously that 56% of people committed Netflix adultery, and he said it with a straight face. And it was that because people cheated and watched ahead on their shows. So just I think having a little fun with stuff. Is, is key. Now with

Jackson Carpenter  28:39

House of Cards You're you're taking and similar I think TO THE HANDMAID'S TALE in both cases, you're taking existing IP. For those who don't know, House of Cards, previously, I believe aired on the BBC. And The Handmaid's Tale was a book and between between those two, I'm I'm curious how you think about communicating to fans of the original, who might have strong opinions.

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  29:07

I think it's just about respect. I think everybody's gonna have an opinion. But I think we do have to have respect for that, where it came from. And I think involving those people. We didn't really involve the BBC actors. But I would say like Margaret Atwood was there along with us the entire way. And it was respected about what she wrote. And I talked and we talked with her a lot, just about all of our marketing material to make sure she felt comfortable. But I think fans too, is you just need to listen. Some of the noise you have to push away because it's nonsense, but I think you have to listen, did you get something right? Or Did did you not? And I think that's the fun part about marketing too is especially shows you usually have another season that you can learn from and then figure out are there new audiences out there or if I upset some people, how can I either not care about that because it doesn't matter or how do I write that? I'd like to To

Jackson Carpenter  30:00

shift a bit to big trends in marketing, AI is currently arguably one of the most disruptive forces in marketing. And I'm curious what AI trends you believe marketers should be paying more attention to?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  30:13

Well, I want to not answer your question first and tell you what I just to your listeners to as you know, you're not going to lose your marketing job because of AI, you're going to lose your marketing job because you don't know how to use AI. So you know, I have our team, here we are, we have experts in here we have programs we we use, you know, beautiful AI to make presentations. Obviously, we use chat GPT and perplexity and mid journey. And I think just learning about it is key. Number one, and I think that if marketers could understand, at least in this phase of AI, if you can find 20%, you can probably clean up 20% of what you do during the day. With AI, the simple tasks, lowest hanging fruit, take that simple task, you got 20% more brain space, to actually think about the things that matter. And with all of us soline, and I'll probably managing, I manage my own schedule, I manage my own travel, I do my own info, it's just it's, it's to the point where like, if I can get if I can actually automate some of that. Or if I can, you know, I use superhuman for email. And you know, that it's in great news, it gives me a draft of what I should write back to the person and it's saved me a lot of time. So I would say that's the biggest point, I would say the thing that scares me and doesn't scare me the most is content generated ai, ai, I think it's going to be good for some of these smaller players that don't have the funds that they need to make, you know, beautiful, creative or version out things. Or they don't have the resources to translate, like translation is going to be a huge thing. Do you know how much it costs to, to train and time to translate ads and translate? I mean, also just television shows, in general to be a huge saver. So I think those are the those are the pieces, but it's also like, I don't think you can take the human out of creative and that's what scares me is that, you know, to me, that's the core of creativity and to the human, soul, and emotion. And I really, really hope that we that we can maintain a nice balance there having

Jackson Carpenter  32:23

come from a background in content, I'm curious how you think about the balance between like, artists rights and respecting intellectual property and AI? Do you have any thoughts on that? I

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  32:36

mean, I think I have the same thoughts. As most people. I mean, I think Scarlett Johansson was a great example of she should own that our or, or whoever owns the her voice, she needs to be paid for it. So I do I do stand by the artists that are bringing this up about protecting their IP. So I do think that, you know, if you can get enough of a mix of something, let's say is has sort of like we do commingled identity here, where you can bring in five or six different pieces, and it becomes quite obvious. It's not that person's anymore. You know, I don't have as much of a problem with that. And again, I'm not even Well, I this is going to change so much in the next even like two months, probably. But I would say that I do stand by the people that have created something and their livelihood, and also their legacy.

Jackson Carpenter  33:23

Now, aside from Ai, what are the most important trends you're seeing in marketing today? Oh, I

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  33:28

mean, I think we can go back to like, like, I mean, when I I'll use where we work, I think one of the biggest trends is really accountability, and outcome based measurement for what you spend. I also think another big trend is, you know, you don't have to be it's creative in the sense of you don't have to create, you know, want five huge commercials, you know, for linear anymore. I think their premium content is premium content to who the beholder is, so it's if Tik Tok is a premium video to that audience, then you should do that. I also have a good friend at Vayner, who is does a lot of digital work. And he tests like seven different pieces of creative and Tiktok. And then I'll put them on streaming. It's sort of a reverse engineer testing. So I think there's a lot of different trends that you can do from a testing perspective. And you know, there's a lot of great companies out there, like swayable, that, that test creative before you put it out there. And I think it's just getting the right message in front of the right person. I know that's not a trend. It's just sort of a thing we've been saying for so long. But it really is a reality right now.

Jackson Carpenter  34:36

And along with that, one of the things that I think a lot about I think you've touched on this a few different ways, getting the right creative and in front of the right people. Do you think that the customization of content, where every person has their own kind of media universe that's a little different from anyone elses. Do you think there's anything lost in that culturally as compared to the day is when, you know, there was appointment television and everyone watched cheers at the same time. And we all were sort of consuming the same media diet.

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  35:09

I mean, I think the thing that I think sad about it is that to me, and I'm an advertising geek, since I was in eighth grade I've been obsessed with it is that, to me, advertising is entertainment. And so it's a shared experience when somebody says, Liberty, Liberty, liberty, I mean, like, I know you had you had her on recently, as well. But it's just like, there's something that's like, that's culturally and we all start to get different things, then it's gonna be, it's gonna lose a little bit of that magic. We all see the same commercial, and we think it's hilarious, and we comment about it. But I do think the bottom part of the funnel, the more personal that you can be based on, based on what you've learned about them, I think that's going to be great. So I think it's a balance between the two,

Jackson Carpenter  35:53

I have to say, I love that you're referencing the Liberty Mutual jingle, my five year old, walks around singing it, they advertise on some of his favorite, favorite YouTube videos, he gets a for whatever reason, my five year old gets a regular cadence of Liberty Mutual advertisement. So I

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  36:09

have I have a nine year old and we were driving down this road, and there was an Arby's thing. And he's like, we have the meats. And so I decided that there's just something I love advertising. So let's not lose that.

Jackson Carpenter  36:23

Jenny, would you be alright with us doing the rapid fire round? I think so. Okay, fantastic. So we have a few questions here, and we'll aim to answer them in, it'll say a sentence or less, what is the most important trait a CMO needs to have? Partnership? What career advice do you have for aspiring CMOs?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  36:42

Make yourself uncomfortable and try different things?

Jackson Carpenter  36:44

If you could market any brand other than VideoAmp? Which would it be?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  36:48


Jackson Carpenter  36:49

What's your favorite marketing book?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  36:50

The brand gap?

Jackson Carpenter  36:52

Where outside of marketing? Do you look for inspiration?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  36:56


Jackson Carpenter  36:57

What's your favorite marketing campaign of all time?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  36:59

This is a big one. I'm just gonna give you my favorite commercial. And you know, it goes back to VW. I think VW, you know, in the 60s had such brilliant marketing and print that said, like think small with the beetle, but the Darth Vader commercial with the VW with the kid, is that one of the best, I think out there in the sense of how it just touches your heart. And that's what, that's what advertising is supposed to do is to make you feel something.

Jackson Carpenter  37:26

What's your favorite TV show?

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  37:27

Arrested Development?

Jackson Carpenter  37:29

Is there anything we didn't discuss that we should have? No,

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  37:32

I could talk to you for hours. But I one thing is I think is interesting for people in the careers that I worked in the HBO in the 90s for eight years. And my boss there was Peter Ligori. And one of the reasons I'm here is Peter Ligori. You know, he ran Fox he ran after HBO and Fox, he ran discover he ran Tribune. He's a producer, making Ryan Murphy's new show, and he's our executive chairman. And this is why I'm here and the world just comes around, you know. And what I love about Peter is he still tells people like, you know, Jenny and I came up with it's not TV, it's HBO. And I'm like, I didn't come up with it. But it's just there's I think one thing advice I'd say is that it's a small world out there and there's some really good people and your career will just continue to put those people in your life

Jackson Carpenter  38:19

I love that and I love the the lesson there about the importance of sharing the spotlight. That's fantastic. Yes, he's

Jenny Wall - Videoamp  38:24

incredible. Well,

Tom Cain  38:25

Jenny Wall thanks so much for coming on TOP CMO. Thank you so much for having me Jackson. This amazing episode was brought to you by TOP Thought Leader don't forget to rate review and subscribe.

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