Dec 15, 2023
38 min
Episode 51

TOP CMO: Betsey Chung, TD Bank- 'Heart Meets Finance'

Betsey Chung  00:00

We call the US a wild culture, a place where customers are fans. And I believe that culture beats strategy. I really believe that I saw it in action. This

Ben Kaplan  00:11

is the podcast where we go around the globe to marketing leaders from the world's biggest brands, fastest growing companies and most disruptive startups, re ideas package a certain way want to spread, they want to be told to someone else's simple, surprising, and significant data to unlocking viral creativity is to make it rapidly scalable. This is TOP CMO with me, Ben Kaplan. Today, I'm chatting with Betsey Chung, Global Chief Marketing Officer of TD Bank, the sixth largest bank in North America, serving about 22 million customers around the globe. Bank where people make the difference. For her tenure at TD Bank, Betsey held the CMO position at BMO Financial Group, where she led initiatives across the US, Canada, the UK, Hong Kong and China. She was also in senior leadership at Aviva Canada, American Express, and KPMG. So how do you create a culture that makes both employees and customers feel valued? How important is it to be data driven? But also human centric? And what does it take to build a well being index that measures holistic satisfaction? Let's find out with Betsey Chung.

Ben Kaplan  01:37

Betsey, what is it like to be in the financial services field as a marketing officer, but with a strong financial background? You're an accountant. You've been a CFO? How does that change your view of marketing when you have those roots? Sure,

Betsey Chung  01:52

Ben, thanks for having me. I think that having a finance background, and a marketing background is just such a great combination for where marketing is today and where it's heading in the future. And so there's always been an art to marketing. And, you know, that's the reason why I think a lot of people join marketing. There's also the science of marketing. And I think that that's heavily tied into financials and analytics, and having been a former CFO, and really understand how do we drive shareholder results is a piece that I just bring to work every single day. And I know my teams are really passionate about that as well. And

Ben Kaplan  02:34

when you talk about that mean it usually it's good advice for career advancements that generally stay close to where the money is, right? If you're if you're in a business, money drives business, if you stay close to that, and you can, you know, be relevant to that generally do well. So how do you think about that in terms of a typical senior marketing leader, a CMO? What are you expected to bring you think that great CMOS do that maybe isn't necessarily in the job description. You know, you're not the CFO, you don't have primarily responsibility, but you have a C in front of your title, which means you have some responsibility for the overall direction of the business, too. What are those skills? And what if someone doesn't have your kind of financial accounting training? What would they be wise to acquire?

Betsey Chung  03:15

Yeah, it's a great question. So we have a very balanced scorecard in marketing. And two of our metrics is very financially oriented. So one of them is called net customer growth. And so it's your gross acquired customers minus those that are trite. And then the second metric is marketing driven sales. And so that is digital sales and targeted sales. Being that they both ladder up to shareholder value. I think it's incredibly important for marketers these days, to really get very close to your finance teams. And as you said, get close to how money is driven. How does the organization drive shareholder value? And, you know, certainly my team has done that over the years, we just invited my CFO to my all hands Town Hall. And he's got such a great personality. He's really funny. accountants do have a sense of humor, by the way. And it's been great because getting closer to the finance team, really understanding how you can partner with the business to drive return, has been a real differentiator for myself and my team.

Ben Kaplan  04:26

And how do you think about that, as you're doing that, and we're in a period now of a lot of uncertainty, that's the most predicted period of recessions we've ever had in terms of just like predicting recessions, and we're sort of waiting around and we're waiting for the shoe to drop and is it gonna drop and it's almost here. And naturally there in those times. There's a little bit of more conservative thinking. How do you balance as a CMO on the marketing side between short term and longer term meaning? Everyone's kind of tightening belts looking at short term you're talking about being related to using metrics like net Customer growth or marketing driven sales? Right? Those are those are things you can measure. And if you don't see it, you can cut things. But yeah, how do you avoid D prioritizing the mid term and the long term that still needs to be where TD Bank needs to go, even as you have these short term considerations that might be driven by finances?

Betsey Chung  05:15

Yeah, it's such a great question. Oh, so I mentioned to you, we have a balanced scorecard, and the key word is balanced. So those are two metrics. The other three metrics are, we have brand consideration. And that's a really key metric. For us. That's a long term metric, I always believe that brands are formulated through time and brand equity is a piece that is fairly long term. The second metric within that is customer experience. And the third is employee engagement. And so those three metrics are very much balancing the shareholder returns, and the medium long term equity of the company. And so how we balance those is very much that everybody in my organization, including myself, has the same balanced scorecard. So you could be in the area of marketing operations. And you would still have that scorecard. You could be in an area where we call it customer acquisition. But you still have a balanced scorecard of brand consideration, employee experience and customer experience. And so it's very, very important because the scorecard drives behavior, and or what people say is what gets measured gets done. And so that's really important to us. You know, it is really important in terms of the current sentiment in the market. As you pointed out in the US, what we're seeing is that there is a number of concerns that consumers are facing in terms of a pending recession. In Canada, it's a slightly different economic market, even though we think that there will be a recession, we're forecasting that to be fairly shallow. And so there is a difference in the two markets. However, from consumer sentiment perspective, I do believe people are worried about finances and money. According to all our studies, that's what we see. They want advice from providers so that they can sift through the situation that they're in. There is also from a demographic perspective, a sort of, you know, with with respect to youth and young adults, there is an increasing living by the day type of phenomena. And they really, really, really need help right now. So you know, all that TD is great, in terms of our people are what differentiates us and through our people. It's the customer experience we provide that differentiates TD and our brand. That all comes through right now, during this time of economic uncertainty.

Ben Kaplan  07:58

It's interesting. Looking at your balanced scorecard, I understand that, you know, we talked about kind of the two hard metrics that really relate to the sales, we talked about three, maybe softer, slightly softer metrics, brand consideration, which a lot of people would have customer experience, which makes total sense. Well, that actually stands out for that. The fifth one, employee engagement is interesting, because not a lot of I mean, necessarily marketing departments would have that as a key metric because it's internal focused, rather than external focused. But certainly, it's been a trending topic that your employee experience is related to your customer experience, particularly when you're a bank that has a lot of retail outlets and people who are on the front lines and interfacing with customers. So talk about that fifth one, employee engagement, why that's important. Should more marketing teams and CMOS be thinking about marketing internally, especially if you're at a big organization like a big bank?

Betsey Chung  08:51

Yeah, I think it's probably the most important metric of all of the five metrics that we have. And I think you rightly pointed out employee experience is customer experience. And what we were finding is, what our customer irritants, our employee irritants as well. So when we think when we deep dive and we double click into employee engagement or employee experience, one of the very key areas is work enablement. So are we making it easy for our colleagues to deliver for our customers, and that is a piece that we really need to continue to focus on. And then moreover, within marketing, what we like to say as well is that we'd like to attract, retain and grow, folks that reflect the communities in which we serve. And that's really important to us, as well as a differentiator within tdw marketing. It's important personally, to me, I think, from a diversity inclusion perspective that we do this and do better at this than any other competitor. And I believe we're there we're on our way and we can always is getting better and better at this as well, but, but in play experiences is a top priority for us

Ben Kaplan  10:06

talk about the differences. I mean, you know, you're based in Toronto, you've worked in the UK, you're gonna have most of I think about 95% of the bank and Canada or the US, but you have others globally as well. Do you think about the employee experience, and then we'll get the customer experience, but employee experience first differently in those countries, there's a different culture. And I know you've spoken before about a different way of doing business, even though those are obviously I mean, English speaking countries with with a lot of shared history, and our close allies politically and everything else. How is it different employee experience in different countries,

Betsey Chung  10:42

it's quite different. To be honest with you, there's best practices in every country. And I think that the role of marketing that I'd like to play is how do you take the best practices in one country and scale it across the enterprise. So the best practice in the US that I saw, and I'm just so proud of the team there who actually curates the annual event that recognizes the top 1% of colleagues within TD in the US, what I saw there is culture and I believe that culture, you know, what did they say culture beats strategy, I think there's something around culture beatings being strategy, or culture eats strategy for breakfast. And I really believe that I saw it in action in the US, and we call the US a wow, culture. And, uh, well, culture is a place where customers are fans. And just like, we are fans of ball teams, and whether it's basketball, hockey, baseball, football, like, you know, fans wear that jersey, proudly, we believe that customers are fans. You know, I believe what I saw there was that I was talking a lot of winners. And they said, TD is different than any other bank that they've worked at. And I asked them about what the differences are. And they said, TD cares about me, TD makes me feel special. And what I loved about that ceremony was that we played the photos of the 160 winners throughout dinner, and with soft music in the background. And so it's so great, because I literally had a whole table, and they were taking photos of the slides. So whenever they came up, whenever their photo came up, they took a photo of the slide because they're so proud to be celebrated. And we make them feel so special, that they're just so proud to work at TD. And I just, I think that that culture that wow, culture is really important. So what we do in Canada as well, in the US, you know, there's there's things about every country that you can take to one another. And what we do in Canada as well, it's we talk about, you know, a culture of care. And a culture of care means that when we talk to colleagues and and even during the interview process, what comes through in the interview process is the word kind. So it's a kind culture, it's, it's, it's one where we have high respect for one another, the diversity inclusion at TD is very different than other banks, having been out other banks. So we don't just, it's not words on a page, and we do walk the talk. And so that's really important to us. So there are lots of things in every country that can be brought to one another. And, of course, in the UK, having just been there as well. And we're doing a lot of market visits these days, I think it's really important to be out in the market and to be talking to people. And so in the UK, where we have our TD securities business, it's a culture were extremely professional, because it's an institutional capital markets business. And our brand is less known in the UK because we don't have the branch presence in the UK that we do in the US and Canada. And so what we're thinking about it there is how do you bring that TD brand to the UK market? You know, they're all quite different in terms of culture.

Ben Kaplan  14:21

Picture yourself as a world traveling chef, you've got a signature dish, but the spices you use might change based on where you are. At top, we conduct marketing campaigns with our team members in 20 countries around the world. Leading Across Borders isn't just about taking your usual playbook and applying it everywhere. It's about reading the room, or in this case, the country or the office, and being savvy about the subtle shifts in perspective and attitude to make each place unique. And he can't really get the full picture without visiting your team's understanding the local flavors, and maybe even changing up your recipe a bit. That's an interesting insight of sort of the loudness versus the kindness. If you're gonna compare that the US and UK, how does that extend to customers? Is it the same that you got to celebrate customers and counselors want to be fans and be truly, truly loyal? And there's a different sort of tone with a Canadian customer that kind of has that sense of care and respect? And that kind of understanding of each other? Does that extend? Or is that your employees that you do that? Or is it also on retail customers, or small business customers or even high net worth customers? Is it the same? Yeah, I

Betsey Chung  15:33

think I think like similar to colleagues, where there's a colleague DNA across TD, whether we are in the US, Canada or the UK, so there's this still the common thread at TD and, you know, we wear our shield proudly. So that's still the case, whether you're in Canada or US or the UK, from a customer perspective, there is a core similarity. And then there's, there are some differences, we have a group within my mandate that does 2500 pieces of research every year for the organization. And so through that research, we do know quite a bit about customers, what we're seeing is that the US market is very competitive with 2000 competitors in the financial services industry, what that does is that there's a lot of choice for customers in the US. So they're, they're really weighing the options in terms of that choice. And, you know, in the US, we've we've got such a great footprint in the Northeast, and then soon to be the southeast. So we're really competing on our people, our people is a true differentiator for us. And also our our distribution is quite a differentiation for us. But those are maybe the two elements in the US that I feel is probably worth noting, from a customer perspective. In Canada, it's a different banking environment, customers have a certain amount of choice because there's a few players, but there's not 2000 players. So it's probably a 200 players so so you've got a difference in terms of the magnitude. And because of that, we've got a situation where, you know, just like, you know, myself where I banked with TD for the last 30 years. So I was a teller, which

Ben Kaplan  17:30

is very helpful when you were doing your initial interviews and things like that for you to be able to say that. Yes, yeah, it was.

Betsey Chung  17:36

It's super, super important. But also I was a teller. So I was a teller in five branches. And because I was a teller, when I was very young, during the university, I knew the brand. So you know, a lot of Canadians would continue with the same bank throughout their lives. And so what we see in Canada is that my children, for instance, paid bank with TD and my husband, when I was married to him, we both banked with TD, and then I was with another bank, and he refused to move his money to the other bank that I was, I was in the need for because he was so loyal. He was so loyal to TD and he said, I'm not moving my I'm not going to move my investments over to the other bank, I'm not going to move my bank accounts over. Yeah, and I just think that because of that difference in market, there is a difference in customer behavior as well. Because of that it's a different competition arena.

Ben Kaplan  18:38

If I'm gonna summarize that with a metaphor from a totally different field, I'd say in the US are people like more likely to kind of date around, they're going to be serial daters, you're more focused on like, how do we become like the primary banking institution and there's gonna have other relationships versus we're going to have more like monogamy in the Canadian market loyalty? It's built up over time just because of market dynamics. Is that a fair, fair metaphor? Or? I

Betsey Chung  19:03

think it's a really clever analogy. I think that there is choice there's there's more wider choice in the US. And so I believe that consumers are always kind of coming to popping up their head up right and saying, you know, what, am I going to bank with this organization? Or am I going to think about another one? The neobanks are also really, really prevalent in the US. neobanks are just cropping up in Canada. So again, a different market dynamic. And so because of that, I think that consumer behaviors slightly different. And

Ben Kaplan  19:40

actually, that lends us a good topic, the discussion you mentioned of neobanks to kind of relate that to interesting market dynamics and how you have to think about marketing. And for those that don't know, I mean, neobanks are these newer, more virtual institution might not need all of the retail presence, they might have a very focused niche, let's or just you know, neobank for the This particular group, they're more targeted and often will maybe have a partner big bank to do things with. There's even some new banks that are really just operating an app right there. They're a customer experience to make things easier. So when you're a big player in markets, how do you stay marketing wise, nimble enough to compete with someone that doesn't have doesn't have to manage all the infrastructure doesn't have to manage all the people all that and they can just focus like, I just see one market, it's underserved. I can do this one thing, I can do it well, how do you compete with that, when you have a lot of size, that's a benefit, but also a challenge.

Betsey Chung  20:31

It's such a great point. So we have brand pillars that we believe in through all the customer research we've done in both countries, that is rarely really important to customers. And so this kind of leads into capabilities. So we want to make it easy for our customers to interact with us. So ease is the first acronym of or the first pillar of the three letter acronym. And the acronym is Eva. So Eva happens to be a woman's name, but it's also the first letter of each of these pillars. So ease is one of value. So customers want us to save them time and money. So that is the second pillar. So values the second and then advice is the third. And then we usually like to slot in the word trusted advice, especially during these economic times. So Eva is we try to build products and solutions that are differentiated, that can ladder up to the pillars of the brand, both in Canada and the US. And so when you think about the neobanks, I believe that the neobanks are either they've got the ease one, quite entrenched, the value one, you know, sometimes not if you believe you're the type of customer who wants to do establish a relationship and do most of your relationships with one institution, then the value one is difficult for neobanks to compete on. Because usually it's a monoline, as you said, right? Like a lot of it is a monoline and it's hard to get for them to kind of compete on an entrenched value to the customer. So the third one on trusted advice. So that's where a lot of the stability of a Canadian banking system gets gets to be quite an advantage during this time. And, you know, during many economic cycles, you know, a bank that is head office in Canada with the financial stability, the equity stability that we have, is a huge advantage. And this is from being in the UK during the financial crisis. This is from being with us domiciled organization during the financial the last financial crisis. So I've been through two financial crises, where I was with other organizations. But then knowing that, you know, I was returning back to Canada. And during the time right now, I just think that from a trusted advice perspective, there's a real advantage of our size. And in Canada, and we're at the sixth largest, we're going to be the sixth largest bank nationally in the US as well. So we're not just a regional bank in the US were going to be quite a large, stable bank in the US. And so. So I think that on the third pillar, we've got a real advantage versus neobanks. And our data would suggest that during this the situation we're in that the the some of the neobanks aren't doing very well right now. And

Ben Kaplan  23:37

maybe take it one step further. It's sort of the campaign level, I think the slogan or tagline of TD Bank and very kind of recognizable and it's kind of green color is unexpectedly human. Where does that come from? And is that related to you mentioned that the culture of care that you sort of said it is in Canada, and I think there's spots there that I've seen that I intend to inject a little humor in this talk about the, the meaning of that and why that's there. It's important. And I should mention, I think this is like an extension of, you know, for many, many years, I think going back at least the decade, this idea of a sort of banking human that looks like more recently has evolved into unexpectedly human what does that mean? And how important is that for positioning for the bank? Yeah, it's

Betsey Chung  24:20

super important. You know, through the competitor and customer research we've done in both countries, what we Why do people come to TD? Why do customers come to TD? It's really, you know, many, many, many reasons. But the two reasons that have prevailed through time is the first one is around our people. So our people is what sets us apart and that's what comes through in our customer research. The second one is there is a big convenience piece. Our branches are located in all the right spots in both US and Canada. Our locations are great ours are still All, you know, 30% longer than any other bank. And because of those reasons, it ladders up to human. And so I remember being in a North American bank that wasn't TD, and all that their customer research would say is that consumers want a human bank, and they do not see a human bank today. And this is the time that I was with another bank. And their slogan

Ben Kaplan  25:25

was, you're a cog in the machine. We have no humanity. No, no, no. Okay, that was not I

Betsey Chung  25:33

wanted to have TDs brand positioning. So we so wanted bank, human, but at the time, TD had it. And so we couldn't take it. And so we had to invent something else. So I think that, you know, people, whether it's Canadians or Americans, they're seeking humanity, and what humanity means over time is, you know, firstly, it does mean people, and it does mean our colleagues are second to none. And they're very, very customer focused. So for sure, it means them. It also means in the user experience, there has to be some humanity in the user experience as well, right. So you know, whether I'm phoning your call center, or whether I am, you're on your mobile app, or whether I am in your stores in your branches, I want to feel that humanity. And so what we've been really focused on is delivering that humanity. And as you said, there is some humor with respect to our campaigns. There is unexpectedly human is the tagline in the US. But America's most convenient bank, it continues to be the case, right?

Ben Kaplan  26:47

One of the latest trends in competitor and customer research is continuous tracking. The idea that we don't just do a big research report once a year, but actually track where we stand and where our competitors stand on an ongoing basis. At top data, or market research agency, we often used continuous market research techniques for companies that maintain key long term relationships with customers that rely on trust and loyalty. companies that sell products and services with long sales cycles, and firms that are regularly changing their product and service offerings are launching new offerings on a regular basis. With continuous tracking, you're able to spot opportunities much faster and capitalize on competitor weaknesses at a remarkable rate. Unexpectedly human is the tagline in the US, is it different in Canada? Yeah,

Betsey Chung  27:41

it is. So in Canada is we're here to help you move forward. So basically, in Canada, or, you know, in past we said ready for you. But you can imagine ready for you during COVID, all the banks had some stores that were that were closed. And so we felt that during COVID, we needed to shift it a little bit towards ready to help you move forward. And that is because we wanted to through all our research, we saw that customers just want to be able to move forward from the situation that they're in currently. And hence now today, like I believe that majority of customers have moved forward through our help through the help of many others within the economy. But that was really important for us to not just continue to stay stagnant during a time during COVID, where that needed a little bit of shift. So we have shifted that an

Ben Kaplan  28:39

interesting that the taglines or the slogans are quite different in between the two countries, I would describe the market dynamics in the US and with 2000 competitors and more choice overall, it would seem to me that differentiating on his human side, especially if you could back it up, and especially if you had things like longer bank hours or things like that that would be a human forward approach that would reflect the markets in the US. Is that correct? Or no it is.

Betsey Chung  29:05

It's such a big differentiator for us, in terms of humanity in the US. And I described our wild culture, how different that culture is compared to other banks. That's real. And that shines through in terms of the way we treat customers in the US. You heard about the dog biscuits, the umbrellas, the pens, so we have these economically friendly, or the environmentally friendly pens, the lollipops, so those are all just like small touches.

Ben Kaplan  29:37

These are small touches that you have for customers, you're going to be able to go into a US market and get an environmentally friendly plan and give Fido a biscuit in a way that you wouldn't be able to do in Canada because that reflects the US market. Is that true?

Betsey Chung  29:49

Yeah, it really does. It's it people are you really yearning the humanity in terms of their bags, and so I think we deliver it in the US in Canada. We did research that positioning in Canada, and it didn't quite resonate as well as it does in the US. So despite what some people feel like two English speaking countries, they must be the same. There are so many differences between the countries and and similarities. So where are their similarities, we always try to leverage the economies of scale. And then were there differences. We try to personalize that to the key and consumers in each country. And so in in Canada, it is a different environment. And so we've landed with the positioning that we've landed on, because of all the all the sentiment and the research that we've done, what it's

Ben Kaplan  30:40

interesting to think about this notion of, I think, your example, the US market of whether it's the lollipops, or the dog biscuits or, or any of that, this notion of surprise and delight your customers, and sometimes the surprise and delight, it's term, it's more commonly used, like social media marketing, right? We're gonna surprise and delight by having like a free giveaway, or send them something. But what's interesting about that, particularly in times of a little bit of belt tightening to is surprise, and delight doesn't have to be super expensive, it's thoughtful, it's like, it's like the difference between getting a gift in your personal life, and you get like, Oh, my God, I got this incredibly expensive piece of jewelry as a gift. And, you know, maybe you're excited for that, because like, that's an expensive gift. But you might just use it for like a touch. It's when did something really thoughtful for you that really understood you. And that wasn't as expensive in this idea as marketers that maybe we could surprise and delight more, maybe we could just be like, slightly more thoughtful, and it doesn't have to be expensive always to deliver that to to our audience.

Betsey Chung  31:35

Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly, I believe that, at TD, I really believe that our brand and our customer experience are two sides of the same coin. And they're very, very linked. So if we deliver on the customer experience at small moments in, you know, during someone's life, those everyday gestures, then it will pay off in terms of long term brand equity, and I believe it has. And so we're very known for things that don't need to cost a lot as you said, a pen, you know, technically doesn't cost that much. But it's it's very important in terms of the gesture, and what we stand for as a purpose driven brand and the environment and what we believe in terms of that. So I think that there was one columnist who wrote up something about around our pens. And I saw an article recently on our pens. And so I always think it's nice that people are recognizing that things don't have to be a grand gesture, or things don't have to cost a ton of money. And it's, it's just like customers do appreciate the little things,

Ben Kaplan  32:48

you know, for all of the marketers listening to you now, and maybe especially those that are either operating in multiple countries or cultures, what do you recommend if we take what you said to be true, which you said, culture eats strategy for breakfast? What should those marketers be eating for breakfast tomorrow to improve their sense of culture?

Betsey Chung  33:10

Oh, it's such a great question. I am, I believe a lot in visiting different places, and really just getting into the conversations with people and sitting beside them and asking them, what brought you to TD? Where did you come from beforehand? What are your thoughts in terms of how this compares to your previous experience? And, and so as you said, different parts of the US have different cultures as well. And so when I think about our colleagues in Maine, and visiting them versus, you know, our colleagues in Mount Laurel versus those in Manhattan, those in Philly, those are all different geographies with a very much a microcosm of culture. And so I just, I would just highly recommend just getting out and seeing people. And I know that these days in terms of hybrid, everyone is very much believers in terms of having that hybrid approach. I think that that's a good approach. I think that that's, that does draw people into our organization, because we don't we say that we're a hybrid environment. And it's two days a week that we're in the office, at the same time, those two days a week in the office. What about we do those two days with different sets of people, and we just try to continue to understand our colleagues and our customers. Both, you know, as you said, culturally, there are quite a number of differences, right, in each of these cultures,

Ben Kaplan  34:42

to echo what you said, you know, it's always one of those things. When you're a leader in any kind of organization. You know, you're always strapped for time and you're always prioritizing things and what am I not doing now? So I could do this and many times, I felt to felt myself like, oh, do I really have time to, you know, talk to people who are doing this or do that air Every time I've done it when I've had a conversation, or I've done more of a formal interview, or just tried to understand, I've always felt like, wow, that was like the most important insight I could have had. And it was always valuable to always learn something. And I always remembered, of course, like, gosh, I had to prioritize this more often, I had to do this more often. And then I got busy again, and I did other stuff and had to remind myself again, but at least for me, I've always found that those kinds of conversations are always so powerful, and give you an understanding that is just totally different from just like reading about something.

Betsey Chung  35:29

Yeah, it's so different. And I think minds can be changed as well. And so as a leader, you know, I, I feel that every time I visit a group, in their place of work in their, where they live, oftentimes not only do I get more context, but I actually end up changing my view on something sometimes I you know, as the leader, of course, you got your opinion on something. And sometimes that opinion can be changed, and it should be changed with more information. But that information gathering, there's a difference between that information gathering from your office, versus from their place of living. It's different. It's just a different dynamic. And I actually think it's a more healthy dynamic. To get out there. Just go out there, meet people. You know, I was just in New York last week, where I've met a few folks in the industry and just knowing even the competitive arena, meeting your colleagues and other institutions, it just, it's so important to open your mind up to other ideas.

Ben Kaplan  36:44

According to Betsey Chung culture isn't just the cherry on top, it's the whole Sundae. That means whether you're scooping out data or drizzling on team motivation, your culture is going to flavor every layer of your business. That's why Betsey says culture eats strategy for breakfast, or maybe dessert. Or put another way, strategy can point you in the right direction. But you need culture to mobilize the teams that will undertake the journey ahead. So creating a culture where employees feel valued, will in turn impact how customers feel valued, the foundation of customer experience, and don't underestimate the power of face to face conversations. I've never met an effective leader that felt that taking time to understand other stakeholders wasn't time well spent. For TOP CMO. I'm Ben Kaplan.


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